Nota Bene Podcast Ep. 165
Great Concepts in Compliance with Lisa Fine of the Great Women in Compliance Podcast
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Listen to the original podcast released July 12, 2023 here:
https://www.sheppardmullin.com/notabene-495
In this episode, we speak with Lisa Fine of Pearson PLC, and co-host of the Great Women in Compliance podcast. We discuss how companies can maintain vibrant compliance programs in an increasingly complex world.
Guests:
About Lisa Fine
Lisa Fine is a compliance leader with extensive experience in compliance strategy, including risk management and mitigation, internal investigations, and implementing and growing compliance programs. As Global Head of Investigations and Fraud for Pearson, the world’s leading learning company, she is involved in all aspects of the ethics and compliance program, including developing policies, risk assessment training, communications, and due diligence.
In addition to co-hosting the “Great Women in Compliance” podcast, where women compliance practitioners are interviewed and discuss their experiences, advice and substantive expertise, Lisa also co-authored “Sending the Elevator Back Down: What We’ve Learned from Great Women in Compliance.” She has spoken at conferences in the United States and Europe and regularly consults with and mentors other women in the field of compliance and those starting their careers.
About Scott Maberry
As an international trade partner in Governmental Practice, J. Scott Maberry counsels clients on global risk, international trade, and regulation. He is also a past co-chair of the Diversity and Inclusion Working Group for the Washington D.C. office, serves on the firm's pro bono committee, and is a founding member of the Sheppard Mullin Organizational Integrity Group.
Scott's practice includes representing clients before the U.S. government agencies and international U.S. Department of Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC), the Department of Commerce’s Bureau of Industry & Security (BIS), the Department of Commerce Import Administration, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the Department of State Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC), the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ), the International Trade Commission (ITC), and the Committee on Foreign Investment in the U.S. (CFIUS). He also represents clients in federal court and grand jury proceedings, as well as those pursuing negotiations and dispute resolution under the World Trade Organization (WTO), North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) and other multilateral and bilateral agreements.
A member of the World Economic Forum Expert Network, Scott also advises the WEF community in the areas of global risk, international trade, artificial intelligence and values.
Transcript:
Scott Maberry:
Welcome to episode 165 of the Nota Bene Podcast. I'm your host, Scott Maberry. My guest today is Lisa Fine of Pearson PLC and the host of the Great Women in Compliance Podcast. We're talking about how the best companies in the world maintain vibrant compliance functions in a complex world. Before I introduce our guest, I'd like to thank our listeners of over 100 countries worldwide. We're glad you're tuning in and please keep the feedback coming, it definitely influences our programming. You can email me directly with your comments and suggestions. My email address is in the program description. My guest, Lisa Fine, is global head of investigations and fraud for Pearson, the world's leading learning company. Lisa's involved in all aspects of the ethics and compliance program, including developing policies, risk assessments, training, communications, and due diligence.
I've known Lisa for a long time. She started her legal career at an international law firm where we were young associates together. She was a litigator and also ran the Washington DC pro bono program. She's also worked in public interest law and advocating on behalf of persons with disabilities as part of a state protection and advocacy organization and has worked in compliance at Gategroup, the parent of Gate Gourmet and the largest independent airline caterer. And Lisa also co-hosts the Great Women in Compliance Podcast and she's the author of the book, Sending the Elevator Back Down: What We've Learned From Great Women in Compliance, published by Corporate Compliance Insights in 2020. I'll put the link in the program description. I've been wanting to have you on Nota Bene for a long time. Welcome, Lisa.
Lisa Fine:
Thank you so much. It's such an honor to be here and it's so fabulous to get to reconnect with you. I feel very fortunate.
Scott Maberry:
This is great, it's really wonderful to have you. So to our audience, if you've been involved in compliance in any way for a large organization, you know that most problems facing sophisticated organizations cannot be solved by legal analysis alone. Complicated problems are solved through a thoughtful, deliberate, holistic approach. You have a problem, sometimes it's a problem that threatens the very integrity of your organization. You need to identify the root causes of the problem, craft an immediate solution, but it has to be practical, effective, and sustainable. And how do you do that? Especially when the problem isn't appearing in isolation. It's often combined with a fast-moving business and regulatory environment. It has to be juggled with lots of other problems at the same time like the pandemic or whatever the next crisis is. And Lisa's been thinking about this stuff in four dimensions for as long as I've known her. So Lisa, let's start with how to work within an organization. How do you run a compliance program that balances business risk, legal risks and understanding the organization itself?
Lisa Fine:
Well, I think there are several components to that. One is obviously understanding the legal concepts that you need to deal with. But after that, it's really important to build your relationships and understand what's going on within the business so that you understand what they perceive as risks. Odds are pretty good until they have a problem in the ethics and compliance area, they're not going to see those as their primary risk. Theirs is to do business, to make sales, to achieve in those areas. So it's very important to understand where your stakeholders are coming from and be able to give them a why for when you're asking them to do something else in their very busy days. I think that's one of the first things that I learned and one of the most important things now, because you really don't want your first time with someone to be when a crisis happens. Because then, it's a whole different ballgame.
Scott Maberry:
It's really true. And as lawyers, we're not very well-trained to think about what the business thinks about as risk or as a crisis or as a problem.
Lisa Fine:
And this is one of the things I think of as karma from even the first time I knew you years ago, I remember the first big case I worked on. I looked at these things and thought, "How could these people possibly get into this mess? Didn't they know better?" I mean, I was a year into practicing. Now, I can see in real time as I'm giving advice, thinking, "How will I minimize what the business thinks they might be doing?" It's not illegal, it's not unethical, but I'm thinking this could be a problem. So how do we communicate about that and discuss that now so that we aren't in the position where we have to come back and look at something or we have a systemic problem. We want to make sure they're always bad actors, they're standing alone.
Scott Maberry:
And how do you do that? How do you put yourself in their shoes so that you understand them better?
Lisa Fine:
Well, first of all, depending on your business, you can go to some of them. And I did this more in my prior company. It was pre-pandemic, so it was a little easier. I went to all of our airline kitchens and whenever I had meetings with them, I would go get the tour and I would ask questions. And for example, I always knew things about dish machines, which is a really weird thing to know about. But if somebody is in a kitchen and you can talk to them about their work, they look at you like you can't be that bad when you come back and sort of explain, they have a bigger problem than that. So it's really learning what makes them tick and also understanding what is realistic. And at the same time standing your own ground when there's something that can be a problem, because that's important as well. They have to know they can't just run over whatever they want from a legal or ethical standpoint.
Scott Maberry:
It has to be a balance, doesn't it? I've noticed too from clients who one of their principle asks of their compliance and legal organizations is that they just understand me. I just want them to understand what business pressures I'm under. Because when they come to me and there's an issue, first of all, it's very hard for them to explain their whole business to you as part of a crisis. If they can skip to the part of here's what's gone wrong. If they know you understand what they're going through, that's helpful. And I've actually heard people literally pleading to have their legal compliance people understand as it were, what's going on with the dishwashers so that they understand how to talk to them when there's a real crisis.
Lisa Fine:
And it helps a lot, especially when people just think for a long time that if they talk to you just enough they can get you out of their hair, which is often an intention. So if you can flip that to the point where they think, "You know what, this is not my excitement of the day, but I would rather deal with you than what may come next." That's really important. The other thing that's interesting about that, and I know we'll talk about it later, is having been in-house for a while. Now, thinking about how I deal with outside counsel or others and trying to translate that when a problem does come up and how they communicate with us and I work with them. So I think that's fascinating.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah, because there's an extra layer there too. But the other side of this balance that you're talking about is standing your own ground, which I think is really interesting because you are the one charged with holding the line on compliance and you're the one who really, the buck stops with you. So how do you keep that in mind while you're still trying to understand and empathize with the business?
Lisa Fine:
Well, I always think of everything from an ethical decision-making standpoint that's kind of become, maybe it's a buzzword for others, but for me, is that most people really do want to do the right thing. And if you think about it more in guiding them on not just saying, "This is against the law or this is bad," it's giving a why on that. And then there are times where you'll say, "Look, this may not make sense to you. To me, it doesn't make 100% sense, but this is what we need to do to be in compliance to continue our business moving forward." And I want you to move the business forward. There are people who think in ethics and compliance, you stay up at night thinking of ways to say, "No, that's not what you want to do at all."
Scott Maberry:
Exactly.
Lisa Fine:
You deal with the opposite. And there are some situations, one other point I'll say about that is that there's a more risky approach than I may think is a good idea, but that doesn't mean it's illegal or bad. It's just, I might not think of that from my standpoint. Then you have to say to people, "You need to own this. This is what I think about it. I'm not going to change my view and give you a big old thumbs up, but you're not doing anything illegal. But if this doesn't work, you have to take that burden."
Scott Maberry:
That's really true. And in fact, I think a lot of times that's what they're relying on you for. There are people who are really good at decision making. And if you give them the bright line that they can't cross, and you give them some understanding about what are the pros and cons of what they are trying to do, what are the risks of what they're trying to do? And then a lot of times, a business is very willing to make a decision and take a risk and then you can have a good outcome even if it's not the most conservative outcome.
Lisa Fine:
And on the other hand, you can also say in those conversations, if the person then says, "I agree with you, but this may be really difficult to sell to outside someone else." And particularly, and I'll say, because you have international listeners, I sometimes say, "Why don't you just tell them that that compliance lady in the US is giving you a hard time," hard because you're going to have to deal with these things all the time. This is my job. That is the pressure I can take that maybe is better that it comes from a corporate function. But you just have to empower people to make those decisions. Now, if someone's going to do something unethical or illegal, it's a whole different ballgame.
Scott Maberry:
And we encounter those from time to time and there's a whole different way of dealing with those folks. But until you come across that, what you're really doing is you're trying to partner with the business to make the right decision within the risk tolerance of the corporation, of the enterprise.
Lisa Fine:
And reputational risk. There are sometimes things that could be risk tolerant, but if they go wrong, they could go very wrong. And particularly, I mean, I just talked about this recently. But in education for example, people are very invested in learning and who's doing that and who's responsible because most people with kids are thinking that they want to feel like these are good people helping them out. So it's important to keep that in mind.
Scott Maberry:
Well, and now that speaks to the role of the organization and what the organization's own values are. And we think about this a lot and I think we'll come back to this in our conversation when we get to ethical decision making, but it's really critical what the organization's values are. Because the compliance decisions have to be tied to those as well as to what's lawful and what's not lawful.
Lisa Fine:
Absolutely.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah. And also, it is true, one of the ways companies look to us as compliance officials or as outside counsel is sometimes they need to make a decision that doesn't feel good for the business, but feels right for the compliance situation at hand. And sometimes, it's useful to have the compliance person back in Washington to blame for it.
Lisa Fine:
Absolutely. Or sometimes outside counsel.
Scott Maberry:
Sometimes outside counsel has to step up and take the spear, that's right. So speaking of outside, a lot of times in a compliance situation you'll have to have an investigation and sometimes you'll be able to investigate inside using your own resources and sometimes you'll have to come outside and get outside resources. What happens when there's an investigation? Do you use inside or outside investigators and what are the pros and cons?
Lisa Fine:
Well, first, I'll give you the lawyer answer. It depends.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah, good answer.
Lisa Fine:
Good answer. But there's several things. First of all, if it's in another country and it's significant enough that our internal resources, either it's going to tax them too much or we want somebody more objective or dealing in compliance and investigations every day, I will do that very often in those, depending on the size and the risk. I think it's important for everyone to have trusted local council, so you know who you can speak to and trusted outside council. And it really does depend on what the impact is, what the amount of research. Generally, if it's a government action or something like that in the anti-bribery, anti-corruption space, you're going to want an expert on that because when you're in an organization, you're often a generalist. You may be fighting fires, you may be doing a lot of things. As an investigator, what I think is the most important when you utilize outside counsel is that they are genuinely interested in knowing what the business does, but also having a bit of a step back because sometimes in-house people need to be managed also.
So you want your viewpoint to be heard and you understand the day-to-day. So when things work really well, you've got somebody who's managing you as well as you are explaining to them the reality. And the one last thing I'll say about that, because I think you probably have a lot of outside lawyers listening to this podcast, is genuinely, you don't have to know everything about the business on day one, know enough, but don't pretend you know more. Because I've had a lot of people come in and in both of my jobs talking about something they know about what they think they know about the business. And particularly in airline catering, they would talk a lot about duty free, I assume you've been in an airport. But also at the same time, being genuinely interested in that and not overselling your subject matter expertise from day one. Because if we're talking to you about a potential issue, we already know you're good. So it's about a rapport thing. So those are the two things that I find from my end are two successful things in a relationship.
Scott Maberry:
I can see all of those. It's very important to be curious about the business, but in my experience, if I'm assuming something about the business, I'm just as likely to assume wrong as I am to assume right. So I have to stay curious and stay open and not oversell myself or the client on my understanding of the business.
Lisa Fine:
And it helps. And genuine questions or interest in what you do or the number of meals or how do people do that is a lot different than just also saying, "I know about the land laws for airports." We're in education, there's so many different areas I never knew about in educational technology workforce until you start doing it.
Scott Maberry:
And there's endless complications. And in fact, one of the nicest things about our profession is you get to learn something new every single day. So that's the way I kind of teach my people to look at it. Look, this is an opportunity for you to really ask good questions to get to know something that you didn't know before.
Lisa Fine:
And it's okay not to know.
Scott Maberry:
Which is hard for the type A lawyer personality very often.
Lisa Fine:
I guess, the older I get, the easier it gets to admit that I know a whole lot less than I did when I started practicing law.
Scott Maberry:
What you know versus what you think, those lines cross right around a certain midpoint in your career and then you're just like, "I don't know anything. I'm willing to say I don't know anything."
Lisa Fine:
We'll do the best we can with this year because this is the situation.
Scott Maberry:
That's so funny. Well, and one other thing that I hear mentioned a lot about outside counsel, and I think this is true, I'm interested in your perspective is, and particularly depending on the jurisdiction, there are privileged advantages to outside countries.
Lisa Fine:
Yes, particularly, I've been working if some stuff in India and basically that was one place where the lawyers managed me on what is Indian privilege, what does it mean? I often say to people in other countries that US, how we feel about privilege is how they feel about data privacy. We assume people will see all of our data. They assume there's no privilege. So you really need help on that.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah, it's really interesting when you get into a multi-jurisdictional situation, you really have to manage the privilege from all those different perspectives at once. Well, that's kind of a nice segue into, apart from just investigations, how do you use outside attorneys and how do outside attorneys add value and actually help with business strategy?
Lisa Fine:
Well, I think one way they can help is by helping assess risks that are in particular countries or particular areas that we may not be thinking about. Because day to day, you're thinking about the day-to-day within the business and help with a 10,000-foot view is what they probably would say it is. And helping you look at it and say, have you thought about it this way? Have you thought about what might be a problem if you go in X direction? And the best lawyers are the ones who say, "You can go in that direction. There's nothing legally keeping you back, but here are three or four things that have happened that you can consider that might impact your decision." So I think that that's really helpful. And on the flip side, when you do get to know them and you could say I saw this or that, and would that be something you would want to think about on how to handle your strategy or going forward? So outside counsel can play a really good role as a true partner.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah, we look at it as depth versus breadth. What I bring to the table to any given client is not as much depth on something that they deal with all the time, but breadth because I've dealt with this type of thing for 100 or 1,000 different companies and so, I can see the way things can go. And this might be the first time the client has seen this particular type of issue. And so, bringing together their ability to understand the business and my ability to see kind of horizontally across how these things go, that's a powerful combination.
Lisa Fine:
And also, you all will have resources or be aware of things that might be slightly different than what we do because you are doing that all the time. You've seen it in lots of places. So you may know something in a specific country or jurisdiction that may be really helpful.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah. Any other ways you think of that when you get a particularly good outside advisor, what are you looking for, for them to give you?
Lisa Fine:
I think for me part of it is a connection and the ability that I can ask them and they can refer me either to somebody else in their firm or another local counsel if I have a question that is not their expertise. And I think like a comfort level so I can kind of trust and talk about some of the other things that might be going on to see whether there are risks. Just kind of a nice ability to have those conversations. Sounding board's what was thinking of.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah, that's a good one. And just being able to talk things over from a different perspective, to have somebody you trust just think about the problem with you. I've found that just processing a problem together always generates a better solution than just thinking it through yourself no matter how smart you are.
Lisa Fine:
And because as I've mentioned my work gets to get relationship driven, I like knowing that I can trust the people. I also like that when something goes wrong, sometimes all you can do is laugh when something happens and you kind of need a sense of humor the more you deal with people. So anyone who's basically thinks every day is the end of the world, that's not helpful. Because you know what? I learned this as I got older, it never really is.
Scott Maberry:
No. And those people don't last long in compliance. You really have to have some resilience to work in compliance.
Lisa Fine:
They said when I started this, I did one of those personality things that gave me high empathy and low resilience. And then I said at one point, "I don't know if I should ever take that again."
Scott Maberry:
Yeah, that's not a very good diagnosis for somebody who's got to do what you do every day. So apparently, you've either developed that or that was a bad day of test taking for you.
Lisa Fine:
Well, I do care what the people I like and respect think, it's the rest that I don't. But I do think it's important to maintain some empathy because no matter what action you're going to do in these things, someone may lose their job. There are consequences that are adverse to people's lives. And I think it's important to remember that too. It's not just an idea, these are human beings.
Scott Maberry:
I would love it so much if we could teach all of the young people in this profession how to have that combination of professionalism and empathy. It's a very difficult balance to maintain because you've got to have distance, you've got to be able to make the gallows humor jokes with your professional colleagues. But you also have to see what's coming and see the human consequences of everything, not just the wrongdoing but also the resolutions of the wrongdoing sometimes has real human consequences for people.
Lisa Fine:
Particularly in situations where somebody was just doing what they were told, but they should have known better. And there are times the more senior a person becomes in an organization, the more they really have to look out for red flags and understand when something's going wrong. And I do believe that somebody who's at a senior level should be definitely treated more harshly than a junior person who's been told by everybody down a chain what was okay to do.
Scott Maberry:
Yeah, we see it all the time. We see young people who are just doing their best and they can get crosswise and they can put the company at risk. But what can really put the company at risk is somebody who's more senior who really should know better and they just haven't put the effort into thinking through what the consequences of their actions are.
Lisa Fine:
And the mid-level person who thinks the junior person can get in trouble for it. If it works out okay, I'll get credit from my boss. And the boss, did they think it was okay? Because that makes the biggest difference. I think that's the most important thing in organizations to remember that these decisions really have consequences.
Scott Maberry:
And that kind of comes back around to something that's in your bio that we discussed at the very beginning, which is training. Teaching and training compliance is all about trying to connect with people about what they're supposed to do, but somehow connecting it to something that means something to them.
Lisa Fine:
And I've been thinking about this a lot lately. How do you keep making these things effective or different and resources other things, time can be a challenge. Last week I was at a conference and was listening to a conversation which I loved about this, which was relating movies back to compliance decisions.
Scott Maberry:
Oh, great.
Lisa Fine:
Yeah. But Adam Balfour, who's over at Bridgestone, who I do some presentations with, we have fun with that. But one of the things they do is he was talking about, well, did the Death Star have anyone watching for HR violations or was there too much pressure on Anakin or what happens when Maverick acts alone? And so, you can talk about what are these real life consequences in a way, in its more fun or more pleasant or finish something as a training and do a meme contest or a video contest of some sort to say take a principle. Because it's not like people get up every day and think, "Oh my gosh, it's so exciting that I get to go do my compliance training today." But if you can do just something and working on that, and I've something I've been thinking about lately for our program as a whole. We have good training, how do we make it even better or more engaging for people?
Scott Maberry:
And it's all about touching something that they care about. And nobody cares intrinsically on its own about compliance for compliance's sake. That doesn't resonate for people who you need to connect it to something.
Lisa Fine:
I get that. I mean, I have to learn about a lot of things in different areas of the business that don't resonate till I understand what they mean.
Scott Maberry:
Exactly. Well, that's kind of a segue into another thing I want to talk to you about because compliance is not always just about enforcing the rules. In my group, we think of it as a matter of doing right and doing good and teaching people how to do that. I've heard you talk about it as a matter of ethical decision making. So how do you look at ethical decision making in an organization and how do you empower them?
Lisa Fine:
I think part of that goes back to relationships, but more than that it's empowering people to feel like they have the ability to do the right thing. I think that an organization, people should feel that if they're in the moment where either they can do this great business deal which is illegal, or go and give everyone the bad news, that these are all the reasons we can't go ahead and do this, that they are supported in doing the right thing and in fact that will be rewarded. That's what I think from an organization standpoint. And I also think that it comes with us being understanding and realistic with them as well, understanding the pressures. And the other point is from a cultural standpoint, these things can get really confusing.
Gifts, for example, in some countries you have that, like the MoonPie in China or certain things you as a matter, of course. But if you're publicly traded, that could be a really big problem. So how do you explain in a way that resonates with people that this is what you have to do as part of a company? I mean, I guess, I'm at my third movie now, but I mean I always give Spiderman analogy that people say, "Why do I have to do this? I didn't have to do this at this company or that company." They were at smaller local companies. It's like with great power, comes great responsibility. There are some things no one's going to like as much about being in a publicly traded company. This is one of the downsides.
Scott Maberry:
That's true, and it's a great analogy. And it also goes back to something you said a little bit earlier, which is your company has values and your people have values, and the more that they can be aware of their own values and the values of the company and the more they can be shown that the compliance rule is not just a rule that we follow to do what's lawful, it's because it supports our community. It's because it supports our organization and our values. I think that's a piece of what you're saying too.
Lisa Fine:
It is definitely things need to be a value based, people need to live those values and you need to see that on a senior level as well. Because when you see that, you know, and I will just say one of the things I say is one of the most cost-effective. Like least expensive best ways to raise concerns is if you have leaders throughout your organization saying, "Look, I hope you don't have to raise these concerns, but if you do, here are all your options. You can reach out to four or five." Hearing that from your manager is such an empowering thing saying, "We want to hear about wrongdoing, and I care" and 1,000 posters aren't going to do that.
Scott Maberry:
That's a great headline for this whole discussion because every single compliance program you've ever seen has said there needs to be a tone at the top. And that tone at the top is something everybody talks about and everybody knows that that's the most important part of every compliance program. But what you just said kind of humanized it. You're kind of talking about how if I'm in an organization and my manager tells me that they care about this issue and they care about me doing the right thing, that means something more than just somebody telling me what I'm supposed to do.
Lisa Fine:
Yeah. I think of it as the tone at the top, message in the middle, belief from the base. And also, somebody's top is not everybody's top. So remember that for people who are mid-level, you are essentially their CEO.
Scott Maberry:
Oh, I love that too. That's so interesting because tone at the top has become such a buzzword. It's easy to forget that it doesn't really mean the same thing everywhere you go. Everybody's got somebody above them who needs to be giving them that message. So if you're a manager of any kind, you can't rely on your CEO to set the tone. You're setting the tone every day.
Lisa Fine:
And we need the CEO to do that. But then if it goes through all the different levels, people see it through the organization and will believe it.
Scott Maberry:
And if I'm in middle management and my CEO is not setting the tone, I'm not going to feel supported setting the tone. So it goes all the way up and all the way back down, that's really great. Well, one thing I've really wanted to talk to you about is your book. So your book is entitled, Sending the Elevator Back Down: What We Learned From Great Women in Compliance. So what does that mean to you and what should we all be doing to help others in our professional communities?
Lisa Fine:
Well, again, similar to that, everybody has a CEO or someone in their own mind that's senior. A lot of us now have the opportunity to give our experiences good or bad to other people. So remember as you are going up the elevator, you do your elevator pitch to really help to give back. And this is a quote, and this is really something that Mary Shirley, my podcast co-host and the co-author of the book really talks about all the time. So it's the ability to do that, to share experiences, to save some people from the biggest stressors when we were more junior and help them figure out what they want to do. Sometimes it's ethics and compliance and sometimes it isn't. And the other part of this book was that we had lots of different people that we had submissions and contributions. So we had women from all over.
And usually in the podcast, we do have men who support women, but this was just women and talking about their experience, whether it was with diversity, whether it was just career challenges, whether it was accomplishments or I felt like I made it or it was the worst day ever. And it's been a really nice experience because the book and the podcast had built a community. And for those still listening, we do have a LinkedIn community as well, and we've seen people send the elevator for others that we've never even met. We get emails like, "I listened to so-and-so and I listened to that before an interview and I got a job" and you just are like, "This is the best."
Scott Maberry:
It's so amazing. And to me, it's so inspiring. And the reason I really wanted to have you on is that your community that you have built through that podcast and now through the book is really inspiring. I think it's one of the best things I've ever seen and everybody I see interacting with it, it's just mind-blowing for them. And I think it's really fantastic. So I think we all need to learn the elevator that got us where we are right now. Now, we've got control over the buttons, we can start pushing the buttons and send it right back down. There are other people who need what we've been through. They need our empathy and understanding. They need to know that we've screwed up from time to time. They need to see us sharing the resources that we've amassed to ourselves now.
Lisa Fine:
And you never really know what happens. We started the podcast and I joke about that, that turned into the community and everything when I thought maybe we'd have a few listeners and my family. My mother said the first episode was dry and it was like a situation where just because we were interested in it, Mary and I and other people were interested. They all helped us do this. So sometimes when you have no idea what you're going to do, just say yes and see what happens because it could be something like the podcast just as often as it's something that it isn't.
Scott Maberry:
Well, it's excellent and it's really valuable and it's inspiring even more people than I think you imagine. And I'm really proud to have you on with us and to be able to link a link to the podcast and also to that LinkedIn community in the program description here.
Lisa Fine:
Well, thank you so much. I said at the beginning, it's an honor and a privilege. You gave me a lot of advice and insight early on into my career and I've always really appreciated it and it's been really one of the nice things to be able to reconnect with you over the last year.
Scott Maberry:
Well, it's fantastic. And I have to say, it's really an honor for me to be able to be inspired by you now and you've given me some ideas to go out and help others with, so that's really been worth its weight in gold.
Lisa Fine:
Well, thank you so much.
Scott Maberry:
Thanks, Lisa.
Contact Information:
Resources:
Sending the Elevator Back Down: What We’ve Learned From Great Women in Compliance.
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